Players in the hearing industry are operating with extremely high margins and until now we've seen relatively low competition levels but the landscape is changing. In this episode, we discuss how our industry is growing, new competition such as Specsavers, Jabra and Apple are entering the industry, and low cost-options is coming.
What does this mean for the profits?
We have invited 3 key experts to discuss this very interesting topic:
Host: Sebastian Wrona
Players in the hearing industry are operating with extremely high margins and until now we've seen relatively low competition levels but the landscape is changing. In this episode, we discuss how our industry is growing, new competition such as Specsavers, Jabra and Apple are entering the industry, and low cost-options is coming.
What does this mean for the profits?
We have invited 3 key experts to discuss this very interesting topic:
Host: Sebastian Wrona
[00:00:00.210] - Sebastian Wrona
Welcome to the second episode of Auditdata's podcast series called Hearing Care of Tomorrow. This podcast is focused on the hearing care industry, and its purpose is to discuss some of the challenges we see in the industry.
[00:00:13.770] - Sebastian Wrona
My name is Sebastian Wrona, and I'm the Director for Inside Sales at Auditdata. I'll be the host of this podcast series. And my main responsibility is to ask questions and to make sure we have a good tone and a proactive dialog. We will have different experts from the hearing care industry to join the podcast and participate in the discussion.
[00:00:34.540] - Sebastian Wrona
The second episode is called, Will profit vanish in the near future? We have invited Steen Thygesen, CEO for Audientes, Peter Bjørnskov , CEO for Dansk HøreCenter, and Kurt Bager, who is the CEO in Auditdata. Thank you all for participating in the second episode.
[00:00:55.300] - Sebastian Wrona
Just want to start off with asking you guys if you want to give a quick introduction. Maybe, Peter, you could start by telling who you are and what you do.
[00:01:05.380] - Peter Bjørnskov
Sure, Sebastian. Thanks. Yeah, I'm Peter Bjørnskov, heading up Dansk Hør, and I've done that for two-and-a-half years. Have a background on the manufacturer side, always in the commercial space. And as such, have an insight through the whole value chain.
[00:01:27.050] - Sebastian Wrona
Amazing. And nice to have you on the podcast today. Steen?
[00:01:30.790] - Steen Thygesen
Yes, hello. So yeah, I'm Steen Thygesen, and I'm heading Audientes, which is a young technology-based Danish company, developing a new type of affordable hearing devices that are accessible and affordable to people in the markets that we focus on, which is probably a bit away from Peter's markets.
[00:01:57.910] - Sebastian Wrona
Cool. Amazing. And thank you for having you on the podcast as well. Kurt?
[00:02:03.320] - Kurt Bager
Yes, thanks, Sebastian. So I'm Kurt Bager, and I'm the CEO of Auditdata. And I have been here for the last two-and-a-half years. I have a background from the IT industry and software, in general. And I am pretty passionate about data and how you can use that to improve business, in general, and also to better health care.
[00:02:31.160] - Kurt Bager
And just for very short recap, Auditdata is 29 years old in the industry of audiology, making software and clinical instruments for the full clinical suite, to run a full clinic. So it's from lead generation to a happy, fitted customer with new hearing options. That's where we are focused
[00:02:58.160] - Sebastian Wrona
Thank you, Kurt.
[00:02:59.450] - Sebastian Wrona
Okay, guys. So there's some different reasons why we decided to talk about this topic. And I think everyone knows the market is growing, but who is going to sell more hearing aids? And how is that going to evolve during the next couple of years? Competition is increasing as well and low cost options are coming. Or to see online screeners, earbuds, and remote care. It's something that is on everyone's lips right now.
[00:03:26.600] - Sebastian Wrona
New market players is there as well. We have Specsavers. We have Jabra, who's just launched a new hearing aid as well. And Apple is, obviously, something we need to discuss in this part. So let me just start with asking you Peter Bjørnskov. Do you see that profit will vanish in the near future? And will there be any dramatic shift in profit?
[00:03:50.130] - Peter Bjørnskov
Now, the most boring answer to that question is, it depends. But vanish is a strong word. Near future is also a strong word. Profits will not vanish in the near future. I think, as an industry, we have had these expectations for a long time. And we tend to be able to come by. And when I say it in that way, it's more because I think that we can survive a pretty long time running a profitable business. But it takes more professionalism in the way we commercialize the products and services...
[00:04:43.590] - Peter Bjørnskov
and let me underscore "services"... going forward.
[00:04:49.530] - Peter Bjørnskov
The pressure is there and will be there, especially on prices. As you said, Steen, we do see the emergence of affordable solutions coming in. But I also think that there is really a lot of value, both for clients and for ourselves, if we manage to be very sharp on the value proposition that we offer, and we target that to the exact right type of client. Something that I would love to discuss further this podcast as well, now that Steen is in it as well.
[00:05:34.190] - Sebastian Wrona
Thank you, Peter. Steen, how do you see it?
[00:05:37.860] - Steen Thygesen
In terms of profits vanishing or -
[00:05:40.590] - Sebastian Wrona
Yeah.
[00:05:41.250] - Steen Thygesen
Yeah. I see it in a slightly different way. I think there is definitely players in the industry that has healthy margins because it's a high-touch business, relatively small units. These 17 million units sold per year. If you compare that with the mobile phone industry, where I've been spending a good deal of my career, we're talking about billions of devices sold per year. So it's a different type of business.
[00:06:13.710] - Steen Thygesen
I think if you want to expand access to good hearing, things will have to change. And I think more the rules of the mobile phone industry and the hearing, you could say, these different type of device that is successful in the industry, that looks more like consumer devices, is where a large part of the growth will come. And they are being sold and manufactured on different terms than today's industry. And I think that that's where there will be definite changes coming in.
[00:06:47.790] - Steen Thygesen
So while the market is growing I think there's a huge opportunity to grow the market. But the overall margins will also change shape and size. And maybe products are being sold with less, you can say, effort and less support, less ongoing care, in many cases. And I think that's what we are aiming our efforts at, is trying to create solutions that are basically sold in different ways and used in different ways. So I think, really, enlarging the market means a new set of rules being applied.
[00:07:34.540] - Sebastian Wrona
Makes sense. Kurt, would you like to comment as well?
[00:07:38.650] - Kurt Bager
Yeah, I'd like to just touch on some of the feedback we're getting from our customers, where new channels, like Costco in the US, are driving margin down. They are pushing, they're growing like crazy. They aim that they are expanding the market. So they are actually getting further down in the average age for a new hearing aid. But it's also an aggressive channel towards the more conservative moms and pops. So that's something.
[00:08:10.240] - Kurt Bager
Then I see the optical chains that have much more traffic. So it might not be so many with known hearing aid needs. But they have a lot of people in there. So they can drive more leads. And for them, that are good to convert those leads, then they are also expanding the market. So that's another one that might take something away from it.
[00:08:33.850] - Kurt Bager
And then I can see governmental regulations and stronger control in some countries, where it's not the same all over Europe. There's some countries that are much more focused on what can you earn when we are actually supporting it than others. So Holland is more tough than others. And there might be some kind of a broaden and transparency in that in the countries.
[00:09:08.100] - Sebastian Wrona
Good point. So if you could choose, let's say, a trend or a single thing that could change the profit, what would that be, in the near future? Peter, how do you see that?
[00:09:24.380] - Peter Bjørnskov
I don't think that's just a one thing. But speaking to what Kurt was saying, there's no doubt that what needs to... If you are, as I am, running a traditional hearing care retail channel or chain. Now, for us to succeed in the long run, it's all about differentiation. Becausee we can never compete with the CostCos of the world, in terms of traffic and in terms of efficiency through the value process generated. But what we can do is we can differentiate ourselves on the the service proposition we offer.
[00:10:21.570] - Peter Bjørnskov
And I think this is really critical for the traditional chains to do that. Because as we see OTC emerging, as we see simpler solutions for milder hearing loss coming in, we need to be absolutely crystal clear on what is the needs for the clients that we can service. And make that very clear to those clients, that they get a service that they can't get anywhere else. And it's a service proposition that actually fits exactly to their needs.
[00:11:08.760] - Peter Bjørnskov
And you could say, Peter, you are naive if you think you will not have a price pressure or profit pressure from the simple solutions, the three-step solutions coming in: buy, fit, use. And you can do it all yourselves, using an app. And I'm actually not that worried. What I am worried about is if, we as an industry, are incapable of collaborating in a bigger pond, then stick to competing in the same pond.
[00:11:44.070] - Peter Bjørnskov
And my worry is not only for the competitive pressure. But my worry is mostly that, a lot of clients, they will actually buy an affordable solution, but it doesn't work for them, because they should never have had that solution from the beginning, because it doesn't fit their needs. On the other hand, if we succeed as an industry in making our value propositions targeting the right client types, we can get a lot of value out of it. A lot.
[00:12:22.860] - Peter Bjørnskov
We saw with the PSAPs in the US, which did not succeed. Because people bought a PSAP, it didn't solve their needs, they couldn't get any support, they put it in the drawer, nothing happened. And what's worse is, all those clients, you could say, why didn't they go for an old-fashioned... No wrong word. Why didn't they go for a modern hearing aid instead? Because they didn't. Because their first experience with treatment of their hearing loss was really, really poor.
[00:13:01.820] - Peter Bjørnskov
And that's my worry that we see the same incumbants, the same entrants, they try to go to the same pond and fish, and they will leave too many clients unsatisfied. And they don't come back.
[00:13:18.070] - Sebastian Wrona
Steen, would you like to comment on that?
[00:13:20.350] - Steen Thygesen
Yeah, I think I understand where Peter's coming from. We are seeing this also as this large number of people that doesn't get, actually, a hearing test carried out, even though they are in the age where it's likely they will have some kind of hearing loss. I remember some numbers. More than 40 percent of people that has not had a hearing test in the last five years, even though they are in the area.
[00:13:51.580] - Steen Thygesen
So this thing about becoming aware of hearing loss and doing something about it with a quality solution early on, I think that's critical for quality of life. And I think in Denmark, it's probably easier than elsewhere because there is a lot of hearing experts around. But when you are out in other parts of the world where there is few and they are far between, then getting a good quality solution for a lower price than you can say ordinary hearing aids might entail, is probably where many people will have it as an entry into better hearing care.
[00:14:27.460] - Steen Thygesen
And that just happens to be our focus, as well, is being that entry-level solution for many, or for a lot of people, we think it's going to be a solution they will prefer. But this thing about getting people onto the track of understanding how to fix hearing loss is really important.
[00:14:48.350] - Peter Bjørnskov
I agree. I fully agree with that. Completely agree with Steen.
[00:14:53.530] - Sebastian Wrona
Yeah. Kurt, could you comment?
[00:14:57.170] - Kurt Bager
Yeah. I just think that there's a lot of technology out there that, right now, triggers people to measure what they're doing. All these runners are measuring. People don't really want to run or bike if they forgot their gadgets that are measuring what they do because then it don't count. And that logs everything you have around your health stuff.
[00:15:19.840] - Kurt Bager
And I'm sure also that the way and your ability to be able to hear will be something that you will be logging. And people will be wondering, why is it changing? Do I need something? And that creates awareness and also collation with all the other health care data that will, maybe, trigger something from another in that we haven't seen before. So I think that's an interesting entry area to something different also.
[00:15:51.260] - Peter Bjørnskov
I agree, Kurt. That's what I meant by being professional in the commercial space, is the ability to also almost educate people that have an emerging hearing loss that there are different types of hearing losses. We tend to say, I have a hearing loss or you don't have a hearing loss. I know there's mild, moderate, severe. But the way that plays out in the client's real life is really, really important. Because I can definitely see that there is a need or you could position a treatment for an occasional hearing loss.
[00:16:40.240] - Peter Bjørnskov
It's the wrong word to say occasional hearing loss. But you have a need as a client, sometimes, to have a hearing solution that works for you. And sometimes you have a client that needs to use it every day, not 24/7, but at least every day when you're awake. And I think there is a lot to gain in that ability, which I think Steen also speaks into what you say, right?
[00:17:13.620] - Steen Thygesen
Yeah.
[00:17:15.680] - Peter Bjørnskov
That your needs emerge gradually, slowly. And if we can speak in to clients and say what you experience now is occasional need. These treatments, they are fit for purpose for that. But if you experience a general hearing loss, you need to do something else. That's what I mean by collaborating instead of competing, because I think there's a lot of client value in doing that.
[00:17:48.380] - Kurt Bager
And so instead of hunting the same fish, we should train all the fish to use some equipment to better hearing, right? And-
[00:18:01.130] - Steen Thygesen
Well, Peter was talking about things that also fits into this notion of the quantified self-movement, where, as Kurt also said, people are really trying to measure and track and follow. And with that comes interest and awareness about many things. And including hearing loss is an obvious thing to try to understand what's happening. And I think in these years, people are researching and looking for solutions that can help them easily.
[00:18:34.370] - Steen Thygesen
And I think people are, at least in the western part of the world, they are daring to try things. Let me try to buy this thing to see if it helps me. And so I think there's this drive for people to look for self-help solutions. And combining that with, of course, smart devices like smartphones and so on. There's a lot of interesting solutions that can be introduced to people early on as their hearing gets worse.
[00:19:04.700] - Steen Thygesen
And I think the percentage, again, of people with mild to moderate hearing loss that doesn't have a solution is actually very high. I don't know. I think I heard about, again, it's something like more than 70 percent, actually, that doesn't have a solution at that level today. So again, there's a significant opportunity there to help people on the right track, early on at least.
[00:19:31.770] - Sebastian Wrona
But how do we do that? There is a reason why we have such a high margin that doesn't use a hearing aid. 70 percent is a lot. So how do we do it?
[00:19:43.260] - Peter Bjørnskov
I think Steen is right. Again, a person with a mild hearing loss that have an occasional need for a hearing solution, the solution itself, it just hasn't been there. And the guidance to the clients on how to use it, whether built into an app or not, it hasn't really existed. It's been an on-off switch. Either you have a fully functional hearing aid that can do everything and really give power, or you have more or less nothing.
[00:20:26.600] - Peter Bjørnskov
So I think the beauty of it is that now the technology starts to deliver those solutions. Now, as an industry, we just need to be damn clever how we deploy them in the channels, so that we actually get people on a journey. And we don't put them on a train that goes off track immediately.
[00:20:51.570] - Peter Bjørnskov
And it's really, really interesting that there's a lot of potential in this. There's absolutely no doubt. But we just need to play it right. And usually, as I say to the supplier of my hearing aids, God damn, give me the solution for the mild hearing loss patients. Because we send so many out of our door again that we cannot help.
[00:21:21.870] - Peter Bjørnskov
And it goes back the same way. If you then end up going into Best Buy to buy the simple, affordable solution that can help your occasional hearing need. If that then turns out not to be enough, then it's our obligation, as an industry, to make it absolutely crystal clear to the client, so now where do you go?
[00:21:50.680] - Kurt Bager
Peter, I'd like to ask you, could you be a reseller of Steen's products then, if he has this mild loss help?
[00:22:02.480] - Peter Bjørnskov
I'm absolutely sure that... Steen, to be honest, I don't know that much about your products, apart from what I've seen on the promotional side. But there's definitely a need, Kurt. And there's also a need in the traditional channels. That's my point. And not at all on an exclusive level. Far from. Then I'll -
[00:22:41.380] - Peter Bjørnskov
Yeah. Sorry?
[00:22:42.660] - Steen Thygesen
No, no. I was just going to say, I'll be delighted to show it to you in more detail. But I, actually, wanted to also just comment that we recently announced our first, you can say, larger reseller partner in India. A family-owned clinic group of hearing clinics. And the reason for why they find our solution interesting is that they sell Widex and other high-quality products from Denmark in their stores. And they're at a price point that is, you can say, very high for Indian norms.
[00:23:18.610] - Steen Thygesen
But as Peter said, they are sending many people away from the stores because they cannot help them with the solutions that they offer today that are quality solutions. So they're looking for ours as an entry level. So basically, get people on the track, into the store, keep them as clients and service them. And then maybe, over time, see them moving onto other solutions as their hearing loss grows. So I just think that somehow speaks to also what Peter said, that it's an important tool to help people to a solution that is good for them.
[00:23:54.160] - Steen Thygesen
And I think if you are a professional, you want to be able to basically work with something that you can vouch for. And basically, we run this built-in hearing test that is a pure-tone, audiometry-based solution. And we fit it according to the NAL standards. So we are trying to do things, really, as clinically correct as we can with this technology-enabled approach. And the dispenser can, of course, look over the shoulder and adjust further. So it's a hybrid approach.
[00:24:28.930] - Sebastian Wrona
But what I actually like about this discussion, and please comment on this one. So we started off discussing if profit will vanish in the near future. Now we are talking about opportunities instead to increase profits. Isn't there a threat right here that currently we're talking about gaining more, but wouldn't that, basically, hit the profits on the current solutions? I know we're going to new markets and we're talking about opportunities. But isn't it going to change the profits in the near future? Technology is something that could disrupt the market.
[00:25:08.990] - Steen Thygesen
Yes. If I can make a comparison, because I think this is quite funny. I used to work for both Microsoft and Nokia. And I used to work with smartphone operating systems all the way back from the late '90s. And in those days, smartphones were actually not that expensive. The ones that people want to buy now for their kids are probably twice as expensive as the cheapest, high-level Nokia phone at those days.
[00:25:39.080] - Steen Thygesen
So prices have not gone down, even though you can say the market has grown. In many case, of course, there's the whole Android side of things, where products can be acquired quite at reasonable prices. But in general, margins has grown amongst the leading players.
[00:25:57.020] - Peter Bjørnskov
Exactly.
[00:25:57.680] - Steen Thygesen
Apple's margins. Apple are taking out so much profit of the industry, and Samsung as well. And the market has grown. The product has become more expensive for some.
[00:26:09.430] - Peter Bjørnskov
Yeah, exactly.
[00:26:14.290] - Sebastian Wrona
But then who's losing the margin piece here? Because you ask about moms and pops before, if they're getting a little bit squeezed in this. Because you get more professional, you get better in the service, you get better on the data and the insight. What you have there. Who should take care? Should we take care of those or would we just let them retire and then there's no moms and pops out there? What are you thinking?
[00:26:47.500] - Peter Bjørnskov
To me, it's not to sound philanthropic, but we need to take care of the clients. We need to take care of the end users. And we need to take care of their needs where they are. And with that, I mean what you spoke into earlier, Kurt, that we have an opportunity, also technology-wise, to individualize the hearing care treatment even more than we do today, for the ones that really needs it.
[00:27:25.030] - Peter Bjørnskov
And offering those services, whether it's proactive hearing care. Or other types of constantly monitoring how the hearing loss treatment is happening and correcting it, adjusting it, much more real time than what we do today. Being able to do that, as a hearing care provider. Most likely a lot of the mom and pop shops, they are just not equipped to do it. They just don't have the capacity and the investment muscle needed in order to give a proper full four, five, six year service, throughout the years to the client.
[00:28:11.860] - Peter Bjørnskov
And if that means that there will be less mom and pop shops, to be honest, I'm not that worried about it. If it means that the rest of the industry that takes care of the moderate to severe hearing loss, if they offer and can sustain a high-quality, high-value service proposition to the clients that you can actually charge for.
[00:28:46.750] - Steen Thygesen
No, I was just going to comment that, in India, 50 percent of the market happens to be through mom and pop stores. So basically, have sold units in the traditional hearing aid business today. So it's a quite large part of that market, at least. I don't know how it is in Denmark.
[00:29:06.400] - Steen Thygesen
But I happen to have grown up in a mom and pop store from a radio and television shop. So I know how good service customers get when they go to those stores. But they are also being squeezed. And things are happening at a different scale. And with a service infrastructure behind it today, that it's difficult for individual proprietors to play in that space. And so that might be this natural evolution.
[00:29:41.310] - Peter Bjørnskov
Exactly.
[00:29:42.090] - Steen Thygesen
One of them. Yeah.
[00:29:44.460] - Kurt Bager
Maybe some could argue that the manufacturers also have a little responsibility there to empower, from a technology standpoint and from a service standpoint, these old partnerships there. That's, at least, what we're seeing, that more and more programs are wrapped together to help them on all kind of needs out there, to make them up and running and get leverage from being many as a little one.
[00:30:18.740] - Peter Bjørnskov
Agreed.
[00:30:25.940] - Sebastian Wrona
So I just want to move it a little bit forward. Because I think everyone is agreeing here. So let's talk about just a quick question about the competitors that we are seeing going in. And Audientes is definitely one of them. But we also have Bose and Apple. And we've just seen Jabra launching a hearing aid as well. How is that going to affect the profits here? And how is that going to affect the mild and the moderate hearing loss market we see?
[00:30:56.540] - Steen Thygesen
Can I come in with one comment on that?
[00:30:58.910] - Sebastian Wrona
Yeah.
[00:30:59.930] - Steen Thygesen
So I think part of what we're seeing also with the Bose hearing aids being introduced in the US. Part of this is to use maybe more well-known brands to reach new customers. So maybe Peter knows this in more detail. But I believe that the Jabra devices that are being put into CostCo is a classic GN hearing device but with a different, basically, product name.
[00:31:27.980] - Steen Thygesen
And so maybe that appeals to more consumers than the classic branding on those devices. So I think that's one part. Enlarging it with, essentially, products that are similar to existing proven solutions, but with more consumer appeal. And maybe new features, like an app you can fit the product from, in the case of Bose. But it's a classic design.
[00:31:52.340] - Steen Thygesen
But I think overall there's these two markets. That one is the classic hearing aid, med-seg market that is converging at some level with this consumer tech market where products have been made by, maybe, a more colorful bunch. And they are now jumping into this idea of adding more and more functionality and features and different sensors to their products. So they're creating this new market which is this hearables space, where the rules are being set right now for what does a hearable product actually mean?
[00:32:31.970] - Steen Thygesen
What can it do? Who can it help?
[00:32:34.580] - Steen Thygesen
So I think that this is this formation of a new market that is predicted to be significantly larger than the classic hearing aid market, because it's generally lower prices and more consumer appeal. So if you think about it coming from two sides, creation of a new market in the middle. That's what we are seeing. And also what the analysts are writing about quite a lot.
[00:33:02.990] - Peter Bjørnskov
Yeah. And there's no doubt that the convergence of a consumer electronics-type treatment and the traditional hearing aids, it will no doubt lead to a much tougher lead generation task for the traditional players. There's absolutely no doubt. And I think that's where, if we talk about profits and where those will vanish, that's where it's going to be tough. Because, again, you are up against a marketing muscle and you're up against a consumer-driven value proposition from an Apple, from a Bose, which is, as a traditional hearing care provider, it's really, really difficult to compete with.
[00:34:00.860] - Peter Bjørnskov
And most of us, we simply don't have the marketing muscle to do it as efficient.
[00:34:08.000] - Peter Bjørnskov
So again, if we can create hearable space which enlarge the pond. And that might be the case, because there are added values in those solutions. Sensors, whatever else. Then it may be manageable. But as a start, at least, I think everybody, all the retail chains, should be ready for is, now, how do we create a lead gen and traffic which is done in a much more efficient way than it currently is? Because it's going to be much more expensive to acquire a lead for a booking. No doubt.
[00:35:00.060] - Peter Bjørnskov
But that's where my worry is. My worry is not that the clients that really have a need for a high-personalized, high service-level treatment for four years that we will not see them in the future as our clients. That, I'm actually not worried about, despite technology.
[00:35:25.190] - Sebastian Wrona
Got it. Kurt, any comment?
[00:35:28.260] - Kurt Bager
I hear you guys saying, watch out for Apple. It's not something we should forget about. They will change the pattern somehow. There's upsides in it, but there's also threats in it, in terms of taking some of the real customers away or fighting with the leads gen on those guys. So Steen, are you also afraid of Apple?
[00:35:56.050] - Steen Thygesen
Not really. I use Apple myself and I do like their solutions. But I also see that they're not really in a position to really help this hearing loss space extremely well. They have other focus. But of course, you can build in functionality to pick up sound and play it back. But it's not the same as crafting a really good fitted hearing solution. But again it might help some.
[00:36:28.610] - Steen Thygesen
I think Apple happens to be, probably, the largest shipper of hearables nowadays, with their AirPods, that you're using, Kurt. I believe it's more than 50 million that they sold last year. It's two-and-a-half times the hearing aid industry's units sales. So it's really interesting, I think, what they're doing.
[00:36:55.760] - Kurt Bager
And half of the total market, in terms of dollars, compared to the -
[00:37:00.230] - Steen Thygesen
Yeah, exactly. And also I believe that the whole headset market is something like 300 million units. And there's just a lot of interesting innovation to come out of that space that can help people with poor hearing. But I do think it requires skills and understanding of what it means to provide good solutions that are better than the piece-ups that are already available for quite a low price.
[00:37:35.510] - Sebastian Wrona
So my final question for you because time is running-
[00:37:39.980] - Steen Thygesen
Could I just add a comment? So the thing that I think is really interesting is people are getting used to having these wide AirPods in their ears. So they're used to do something to hear. And that's why this step towards newer solutions, including different bespoke hearing devices, maybe it's getting smaller for the current generation than it was in the past.
[00:38:05.660] - Sebastian Wrona
But Steen, let me finish off here and ask you or stop with you, Steen. So really good discussion here. So I'm going back to the first question. Do you, Steen, see that profit will vanish in the near future?
[00:38:19.430] - Steen Thygesen
I think that the profit structure will change, and especially for the established players. They will see changes coming and they will need to adapt to it. So yes.
[00:38:30.470] - Sebastian Wrona
Peter?
[00:38:33.680] - Peter Bjørnskov
Tend to agree. I think we will see the profit come from the treatment rather than the product itself, if you get my drift.
[00:38:42.440] - Sebastian Wrona
Yeah, makes sense. Kurt, how do you see it?
[00:38:46.160] - Kurt Bager
I just see the market is getting broader. So there's not only one part, or only one piece. It's a broader thing. And I think that you need to understand where you are in it. And from my perspective, picking up information about who needs and then following it. So the data side is important to grab them at the right site, the right time and space, and then make sure that you give them the right treatment. That's where I will be focusing.
[00:39:21.630] - Sebastian Wrona
As I see it, this discussion could actually continue for three more hours, but time is up. So guys, thank you so much for joining. That's been a really good discussion and I'm really happy to see everyone here.
[00:39:34.650] - Sebastian Wrona
I just want to say, our next episode in the podcast is going to be about the optical. So it's about optical and opportunities. Are they a threat or are they an opportunity? We will see that the next time.
[00:39:49.510] - Sebastian Wrona
But thank you, everyone, for joining and thank you for your time.