So first of all, thank you to everyone who is participating and all of the ones who has downloaded or are listening to our podcast. This is the first episode of Auditdata's great new podcast called Hearing Care of Tomorrow. The podcast is focused on the hearing care industry, and its purpose is to discuss some of the challenges we see in the industry. My name is Sebastian Wrona and I'm the director for Inside Sales at Auditdata. I'll be the host of this podcast series, and my main responsibility is to ask questions and to make sure we have a good tone and a proactive dialogue. We will have different experts coming from the hearing care industry joining this podcast, and participate and discuss these different subjects.
The first episode is called:Is the Role of the Audiologist Dying? And we have invited you, Chris[inaudible 00:00:56] from Sanova. You will be our industry expert today. So thank you so much for participating. Thank you for having me.
We also have [inaudible 00:01:05] the clinical director in Auditdata. You are a audiologist with more than 14 years of experience from GN Hearing, and thank you for participating. Thank you. And Christoffer Spangenberg, the CCO in Auditdata with more than 25 years of experience in different software companies, so you have an idea of what software is about and thank you for your participation. I'm sorry to say yes. I think we will just kick it off here and let's get started. Just so you know, I think we've seen quite a big swift in similar industries such as the pharmaceutical industry and the optician industries on how their IT are managing their daily operations. New technologies have been implemented. New places where you can buy the products has been enabled. You can buy glasses and medicine in every consumer store all around the world, and looking at the hearing care industry, we have not seen such a big change over the past 25 years. So the big question is, is it going to change, and when is it going to change? We thought that it would be relevant to kick this podcast series off by discussing the role of the audiologist, so I will stop at that, and then, Chris, let me start asking you; do you think the role of the audiologist is dying, and how do you see the future of the audiologist? Well, great, though we're not starting with controversial questions. Very thanks though. My opinion is that the audiologist is not dying. I think what we're seen is we're seeing an evolution of the privatisation of tasks and responsibilities driven by many different factors, whether it be technological, whether it be economical or whether it be consumer driven. But certainly, my strong opinion, and I'm sure we'll get into this a little bit more in to terms details, is that this is an evolution. In similar ways, we've seen the evolution of other models of the industries and maybe not the best example, but if we think about pilots 70 years ago and how they engaged with an aeroplane versus what they actually have to do today. That's very technology driven. It's not just by the technological advancements that you as a consumer, feel comfortable in moving the pilot from the plane about 36000 feet. But these new responsibilities and new areas of focus, they're an outcome of the changes that we see in the world today. It makes sense, makes sense. Esther as to how do you see the role of the audiologist? Well, I will say I have to agree with Chris. I don't see that the role of the audiologist is dying. I do see that it might also evolve and change some of the jobs that the audiologists are doing, and the fact is that we have so many million people with hearing loss and untreated hearing loss. So I would actually say that there is a lack of audiologists and the role is not dying. Interesting, and Christoffer, if you could give your view on the situation and how it will develop through the new future, that would be lovely as well. I think it's all about thinking of time. So, I'm a software guy and I'm not from the industry, I only have two and a half years of experience, so I'm still a novice within this industry.
But I think my point is the following:when I'm listening to the statement, I don't believe the audiologist is dying, no, but I think it's an evolution. It depends on what time frame we're talking about, because if we're thinking that this industry is very old and then thinking of the pace of this evolution, then I would maybe be as bold and saying maybe we're looking into a disruptive evolution. I like the example of the airline industry and the pilots. I think it's actually quite relevant. I can give you another story I like to tell when I'm thinking of these ways. I t's the role within being a banking adviser in a branch in the bank in just 15, 20 years ago. If you're looking at how that person were a very important person in every people's private life when they were going to make a decision of buying a car, buying a house, kids moving from home, you would never consider not talking to your banking adviser for how you should do that in your private life. I think most people you talk to today, if you said you need to talk to a banking adviser before you do one of these things would say, "No, I just do that myself." A nd I think certain of the elements, you can't just say it's one to one to the Audiologist industry, but I think there's certain things about processing workflows, customer journeys, that I think technology will help the audiologist going forward. So I would rather say I believe that the role of the Audiologist will be changing, and may be changing faster than it has done for the last 10 years. That would be my statement. Okay, interesting. But who or what could change the role of the audiologist? My opinion is the change is or should already be happening. The technological advancements that we see in our industry is nothing new. This started back in the mid 90s with the advent of digital. It was only ever going to go in one direction. I think we have these moments in life that acts as an accelerator. Let's just look at 2020, the COVID pandemic and what that's done even in our personal lives in engaging with people as I'm engaging with you today. For example, I live in the United States and all my family's either in Canada or the UK. So even on a personal level, I can't see my family unless they're on a screen. So I think that the change ultimately should already be happening. I would even go back even further than the last number of years. We think about since the end of World War II, the world as a whole from a consumer perspective, has just been presented with this world of abundance. There's more of everything that you could ever want, and that's really no different in our industry, whether it be in terms of consolidation of brands on the human manufacture side over the years, but certainly in terms of availability of colours and models et cetera, or even options in terms of where you can get your services and your product from. There is a lot more available today, and I think when we go through this period of time when you've got so much abundance of options out there, and then you go into something like a financial crisis of 2008, all of a sudden what we find is if the demand dies, but supply doesn't respond quick enough, you end up with this greater polarisation. These are the moments in life that further exasperate the situation and think when we think about that aspect of it, and I think, Christoffer, I'll leave it to your point, it requires all industries, including our own, to really consider what makes me different. If most of the abundance is actually in the competition versus the products, then obviously technological advancements now, to Christopher's point allows us that time and that flexibility to be able to burn calories on the things that make me different, me unique, my business unique. That creates a blend of experience, and I think that, like I said, this is not an overnight change, and I'm sure the topic of OTC will shortly come up at some point. But again, I think we have to recognise that change has been coming for so, so long. I also say when we continue the conversation here, in my presentations, I often will talk on the topic of customer experience and I'll introduce myself as a student of my own experiences, and what I mean by that is, I think that we're all consumers. We're all customers and we all have our own consumer customer experiences or patient experiences, and I just think as an industry, we should really try and look beyond the fences, the boundaries of our own industry and learn from outside from those industries that actually have responded to those changes a little quicker. So I think change has been coming a long time. That changes has been coming for a long time, and I will say, I believe we will see a shift. We saw a shift overnight with the COVID pandemic in the way that audiologists were forced either to close down or change the way that they provide service to end users, and it's all getting more digital. We're all talking about to the audiologist or to the services or in that way of servicing our end users. We will also see a shift in the way that the end user is engaging with technology. We are still looking into some decades of elderly people who are not that advanced with technology. But I'm very certain that we will see that the younger generations that are growing older in maybe 10 years, who will need a hearing technology, they will have all the demands of the way that we in our industry provide service to them. If I should add to the... For me, it's more like if you think about what is it that is changing? So I think actually again, we are all consumers and there's more than enough of everything. But when I'm looking at this industry specifically, and try to look at the personas then when I'm looking at the audiologist as a personnel, then it's basically a person that is a very independent, highly educated profile. And I think some of the stick in this, when we have this topic, discussing this today, it's about that independency and that very highly qualified colleague or persona. But if we would then change the topic into; how can you basically treat people better? How could you make them more happy, more satisfied with the service you provide? Could the innovation of technology support you in doing stuff without taking the independency or all your qualifications away from you? Then I think we're into what I mean by the disruption of the industry, because I think a lot of the things that is going in and that's why I actually would maybe support saying maybe not dying, but changing, because there will be so many aspects that will support the audiologist in the shops or throughout the customer journey. S o things have to change, because it will be so much easier and so much better. There are so many examples from many, many different, at least real life stories I've seen and cases that we could talk about, but that's going to happen. Then you can have some markets that are more conservative and some markets or segments who are more innovative. But it will come, I sure believe that. Christoffer, this is an interesting one because, over the years, the decades, we often will talk about the similarities between our industry and optical. Back when I started, the industry was very much... I'm sure because it was just... It an aid would be to recite a human. But I think that the parallel line between the two seems to have separated significantly by the advancements of technology in the investment itself. I f we're talking about optometrists, I'm not sure that we'd be having the same conversation because the hearing aid doesn't engage with all the technologies in the world, and I think it's that enablement of connectivity that really is the one that can be driving that significant change. Not, just because there's a demand on the audiologist, that they need to do something, but the consumer now is not just getting a hearing instrument, but being thrown into a world of dizzying opportunities. They need the expert support and guidance, not just in terms of understanding the autological applications or amplification, but also understanding that patients at a level that they never did. Understanding their lives, how they interact, interact with technologies, what their home environment's like. So that's an interesting point. We're actually seeing, I think... Just take the example of when you talk connectivity, Chris, then you have today very advanced hearing aids where they are interlinking all information about the behavioural data of that specific hearing aid to that specific customer's last patient, which, if they consent, will go back to their audiologist and then can give them a better treatment, better customer care. But if we are looking at volumes, then right often we talk about a one to one connection. You have a patient and you have an audiologist, but they can't have an overview of, I don't know, 500 to 1000 patients. This is where, a very concrete example, technology can help you prioritise, who should you get in contact with? Who should you help first? And these basic things is something that is normal in other industries, but in this industry, because it is a bit conservative on the customer journey at least, not on the products, then this is going to happen. And for me, that is changing the role of what an audiologist traditionally is spending their time upon or how efficient they are. I don't know if you agree. I absolutely agree with that. I think that at the end of the day, as an industry, we do a very honourable thing; we help people reconnect with the world and with loved ones, and a lot of us came into the industry with that being a driving factor and it also translated in terms of our training, et cetera. But I think at the end of the day, we're still winning businesses, and in order to be able to deliver on this mission that we're all on as an industry, we have to operate a successful business. Q uite often a successful business is an efficient business. I think utilising that data, to your point, not just for positive financial outcomes, but often recognising that in fact functional outcomes are the outcome of a positive emotional outcome with the brand working with staff. I think that that utilisation of data, it is an area that we can make some significant strides forward. Now, it does also raise a question in terms of what as an industry do we need to do, possibly in terms of changing how we train audiologists. I'm not sure that's a conversation for today, or if that's even important. Maybe not today. That's another topic. So one thing we could also, and maybe I'm a bit bold here, but when I first heard about, at least in the private sector, the number of hearing aids typically sold in an average clinic, was not very many. I think this industry, for many good reasons, there's high profitability in all the different steps of the value chain, and I think that's something that this industry, of course, likes to defend. But it's also something where when you have that type of business, a model, then new entries will try to come in and take some of that value. So it's not just technology, I think is something that will change how we are working, it will also be that new entries. Then you can use the example, Chris. I don't think they're new anymore, but the optical sector moving into the audiological industry, but there will be other types of players coming in because there is a value to gain. That I think also is a challenge for how this industry traditionally has been operating and how efficient it is. Yes, so you mean both the entry of what we see, for example,
like Apple and [inaudible 00:19:23] coming in on the market, right? To that, I will say it's interesting. They want a piece of the cake, but we are in the fact also facing the consumers who we know it takes them about 7-10 years to recognise that they actually have a hearing loss. So for the industry to advertise for good hearing health, and we as a population need to take good care of our hearing and that we have to act on a potential hearing loss, it's a huge task for us to, from my point of view, to get people into the shops or get the people to buy an OTC and get across that barrier that I might have a hearing loss. I t's still a fact that a hearing loss is different than having side issues, even though hearing instruments are very small today and nice in designs and so forth, even though consumer products like OTCs are being like having the Apple airpods in the ear. There's also, from my point of view, a change of the way that we communicate with each other, because when you have your ear plugs in, Christopher, I do not want to engage with you because I think that you are listening to music or you are having a conversation on your phone. So the phone factor in itself, to me does not tell me, I, as the other part, can communicate with you. So I think there's a lot of change that needs to happen for these other entries to have success. How do you see it Chris? Well, I personally think competition is good. I think that a new entrance to the market ultimately is a positive for everybody. It promises to take a look at what we're currently doing and what we've done historically and challenge ourselves even more. So I think that certainly, that all manufacturers and certainly many on the high streets as well, are constantly trying to strive and push forward to the next level, and I don't believe there's complacency; certainly what I've experienced in the industry. But sometimes a little bit more competition, just forces to drive a little bit further than... So quite frankly, new entrance to the market, in any market can be unnerving. We know that. But I think that it's a mindset and understanding that there may be multiple model types within our industry, which each segment of providers who enters into the market cater for. I think this difference is that I often think about with our industry, the dominant logic that we apply, as we've seen in other industries, historically, it's been a product dominant logic, and as a result of that, it drives the things that we do, it drives the areas that we invest in. In some of those industries, we'll see there's been a gradual shift partially because of what we spoke about is wealth abundance. And that shift now goes over to a service dominant logic. At the end of the day, from a clinician's perspective, whilst there's a host of hearing aid technologies available to provide to our patients, let's also be honest; there's not many manufacturers. So the product that I'm able to provide, assuming autologically that it applies about here, is a saying that can be applied in a clinic two blocks down the road. So back to the technology, the advancements, the fact that technology has improved so much, first I think the aids are exceptional, and it's a big thanks to all manufacturers for the investment that they apply there. It enables more time to focus on the soft points. Some years ago, I was engaged in research called Forrester, which I have a somewhat unhealthy interest in. They fascinate me. That's some of the research they come out with. They have a metric, a business metric called the Forrester's CXI; the customer experience index. I think that whilst historically I've always been somebody who sort of leant towards things like net promoter score has been a value metric, this one caught my attention. The reason being is in essence there is three overarching dimensions to a positive experience, whether it be a consumer, customer patient, and then those three are E's: effectiveness and emotion. Now you can say that the product possibly goes into effectiveness, et cetera. Maybe the outcome if it's a positive fit, also impacts emotion. But the reality is that most of these things are going to be impacted by the relationship, that trust, that connection formed, which technology cannot replace, in my opinion. What was interesting was I actually had a small focus group of hearing aid[inaudible 00:25:00] some wearers, and we were asking them and trying to understand all of these dimensions. What are the attributes in the clinic that influence each of these, as well as then understanding, which one has the greatest impact? And look, I'll be honest, this wasn't research to the level that we would[inaudible 00:25:18] accomplish. So it's somewhat anecdotal, but the outcome of that small group was the emotion trumps ease, for example.
Things like:I'll wait longer, I'll travel further if you make me feel special, if you made me feel like an individual. I think that for me, that's the big, big takeaway from all of this. Technology advancements help the consumer and ultimately compound that it helps even further because it enables the human health care professionals time to focus on the things that maybe historically we've not felt. We would have little time to really focus on and deliver that personalisation that now differentiates me from my competitors. Chris, let me just comment on that, because that's very interesting. So what we're talking about here is a personalised customer journey, right? It's something where we can take care of the people, make sure they feel good, feel safe in what they are going to invest in, right? And if we look at that and talk about, as Christoffer said earlier, the highly educated people, staff, they have it in the stores. We've actually done a little survey here, which is our contact staff responded quite well to this. So how could you believe a fitting by a non-a udiologist using a standard system and machinery is compared to an actual audiologist fitting? That's a very interesting question, right? Right now, they say 40 percent average would be as good as an audiologist, and it will raise even more because of systems, AI, and other features in technology. So they actually say within five years, 52 percent would be as good as an audiologist. Now, that's quite interesting to talk about, talking about also the emotion and all of that side, because that means basically a normal person could do fitting, and taking care of the customer, make them feel special and not be educated as an audiologist. How do you see that? I think I disagree with your research. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair enough. No, no, I mean, look. T here's a ton of research found in these areas, and so I can't reference the individual who ran the research. But I recall some years ago research in the same with you, I believe, actually now, but it may have been US- specific, but that posed a similar question. It's not the same question, and I believe the outcome of that one was more in the lines of around almost 90 percent of those surveyed would feel that the audiologist can't be replaced and even though these were consumers and users. But look, everyone has different opinions. We can even go as far as saying that from one global region to another, there's these cultural differences, there's availability of technology, and the home environment differences that will all influence our opinion to that same question. I think what it comes down to is this. You understand that if you posed the question differently, so that's the end, and you asked 100 people, you could probably get 100 different answers. I think that's the point that we've got to focus on. We're all different, maybe some realities, but it is those little things that we prioritise. I think that in the same way that the hearing technologies today versus what I used to fit say to the National Health Service back in the 90s with two twin pots and a screwdriver, we have the ability to tailor the technology, toward a new level, and then deliver in on unique or logical requirements to apply to the service. Now, is everybody going to say, "Okay, I have to go to an Audiologist"? No, of course not. Some people will be happy to engage with a piece of the EC type product, and that's okay. If that is what drives them, I think it can be hard to influence them. But what it will do, one would hope, at least, is it broadens the awareness of hearing loss. I know right now that it's hearing awareness month, and of course, we do everything we possibly can to remind people the connection between hearing loss and other ailments et cetera as well. But by allowing people, multiple channels, and purchase models, ultimately can only be a positive thing, in my opinion, to broaden that awareness. And it's not to say that, "Okay, go get an OTC piece up and realise that it's not suitable and therefore you've got to come up to the audiologist, there will be elements of that." But equally, some people will be satisfied with it. But if you raise that awareness earlier in the life to ask this point regarding the seven, eight year tune we've spoken about so often, then maybe that is another way to accelerate individuals looking for that highly trained and skilled professional care and attention. I think we see it Chris, in US, where you don't have that strict maybe reimbursement guidelines that we have in some countries in Europe. We see other types of business models rising. So business models in the audiology service where you might need to come down to the store and get a hearing test, but then everything else goes across a cloud. So that really caters for that different personality who does not want to engage and have that personal connection with the audiologist as other people will. I have to echo you, Chris, with my time in GN and we also had ethnographic studies that show that the human factor in getting a hearing instrument was so important. There were parts of technology that could not solve that. But on the other hand, I have had younger patients in their forties and fifties, even with very severe hearing loss, that just said, "Can't you just give me a programme so I can programme my hearing aids myself? I don't have time to come in here to you." So it's so variable, but yes, the human factor is still very important in this industry, I agree. But I think we can provide services and technologies and to Christoffer's points, way that we can do proactive and better hearing care for the audiologists to service their patients in a better way so that we have better patient outcome on the longer term so we don't have these hearing aids that gets into the door and not being used, or we can react on problems before we even know about them as audiologists. That might be going one or two or three years before we see a patient again and they come in with lots of problems. It's an interesting one. We all talk about this patient journey and processes as well, and I don't know if this is a rhetorical question or not, but what are the tools and what is the focus in most clinics in terms of understanding what that could mean in clinic patient journey is and then the processes in there and what we do in what stages and so forth and capture an individual preferences, et cetera. I know Christoffer, I think you and I some time ago were loosely chatting. I think w e spent probably felt like a week at least talking about property and looking at those types of models, and how do you apply that in a clinic to help enable prioritisation of your investments and support and training, so forth. But I'm just curious as to from your perspective, in terms of those processes, we talked about changing them. What's your take in terms of how clinics today currently monitor them and really understand what those critical aha moments are for the patient? Well, I think the aha movements for the patients are when you... Well, I think it's different depending on who the patient are. You have the wife who's bringing the husband down, and he's not in the mood, for getting a hearing because it's the wife who tells him that he has a problem. But there might be tools here and we have those tools today that can demonstrate that, well you actually have a hearing problem, and we also have tools that shows the benefit of a hearing instrument. But it is sometimes those aha moments when you actually fit the hearing aid and turn it on. I have had patients with tears in their eyes. Or you just turn on a different feature that you might even not even have thought would help this patient, and the tears are just running, and then you have had a successful day. So I think we all as audiologists have had those moments. But successful hearing aid outcome is, of course, when the patient comes back and reports to you that the hearing aids are benefiting, that they are part of the social life again. P rocess is in that way, there can be in-clinic processes to do that, but there can absolutely also be aftercare services that we can design that can help the audiologist engage with the end user to understand if they benefit and keep them on track. I often think about my experiences with other companies as a consumer. Some companies are good at this, some companies are not good at this, in creating a branded experience. It's not that it's all overly scripted per say, but you know that there's a certain experience I'm going to have some brand. I think for me, this really resonates. This has been an area that is important to focus on in our industry. When we talk about this world of abundance and increasing competition et cetera, new models and delivering; being able to delight everybody, yes, on a personalised level, but to give them that brand experience, the recognition of your brand, not the brand of the hearing instrument- No, no, the brand of your business. Your people, is the thing that really resonates, because, of course, we've also seen during this evolution and world of abundance and so forth is, times like the financial crisis of 2008 has had an impact on the trust of consumers with businesses. Edelman Research and the book one they want to have this trust barometer research that they put out every year, and it shows how trust between consumers and businesses has been declining over a period of time, although it also breaks it down by SMEs versus government, large retail, et cetera, and what's kind of nice to see is SMEs have a trust advantage in all global regions. But the point of that is that if trust is declining, it almost results in the fact that we now need to rethink our marketing. Marketing is not the fancy leaflets and the logos, et cetera. Marketing is the whole environment of your business and how least exceed the whole experience. People genuinely don't trust what you say about yourself anymore as a business unless it matches what people that they know, people in their network say about you. How long ago was it that we used to go to travel agents to get guidance on where we going to spend all our hard earned money to go on vacation? What happens now? We listen to complete strangers on Tripadvisor. W e've never met- Chris, the retail, are they ready to get those types of ratings or certifications? I'm thinking the following. If we think about the audiologist, there is just when you're talking about brand experience and emotions and these kind of things, at least when you look at the Audiology industry, you have the large change, yes, and you have the hearing industry manufacturers controlled retailing chains, yes. Then you have a large pool of small independent moms-and-pop shops with a highly enthusiastic and very skilled audiologist. But I think when I listen to the industry and also
been listening to you [inaudible 00:39:00] and also you, Chris, then I think the key word for most audiologists is treatment and care. It's not increasing their brand or getting the retail profit chain working more if it... So the challenge here is, half of the industry is actually that; small independent shops who are driving their shops and having a good little business. But I actually think they are going to be squeezed more than the big chains who are very aware of the retail profit chain and the customer experience and the brand. So the challenge of this industry is who's getting squeezed? And when I look at the numbers and I know it's a small industry, so you can't just call Forrester and say, "I would like the market numbers for this industry." But the picture you get is it's consolidating. So the big whales are eating the smaller fish right now and the small independent are still coming, but they're getting squeezed. So my question to you guys, that profile of the more, can say, the small audiologists who are having a few shops or one shop, are they actually going to be working the same way today as they will tomorrow? I would say that they have a future, if that's the question. There's no doubt that-
I believe [inaudible 00:40:29] it's not a question worth asking to it. So respectfully, because I just think that they have a point. There's no question about that. The scale, when we talk about larger businesses, whether it's in our industry or outside to create a branded experience over hundreds of locations versus one or two. It comes with significant challenges and not every business is successful in doing so. And so I think that the smaller businesses, which obviously equally as well have a smaller catchment area by design geographically, they have the ability to be the champion within that small geographic area. I think also you probably find a difference in terms of staff. I think a smaller business, it may be easier for business owners to really have employees and their team members more highly engage beyond just the salary. I think that genuinely is from experience when I go around clinics is that. It's fundamentally, when we look at things like the service profit chain, which is obviously designed to read right to left as opposed to left to the right... The point is your metric of success. We may want positive financial outcomes, but the root driver of that, when we go back beyond patient loyalty, patient satisfaction experience, internal quality services, is the people. And I think that at the end of the day, that's what makes clinics unique. I believe that this ultimately is going to be the biggest differentiator of those sight clinics that you refer to Christoffer. I actually agree to that point. I think so too. Okay. I think we actually have gone quite far in this discussion already, and I think we could actually continue for hours. It is a very interesting topic, and I just want to kind of have your final comment on this. So maybe Chris, and
[inaudible 00:42:38] , and Christoffer, a last word on the subject. How do you see it? Have you changed the way you view the audiologist in this little 40 minute session? Chris first. I have not changed my opinion of the audiologist, no. I think that I've always believed, partially probably because I once was an audiologist, but more than anything else, because I've engaged with the audiologists over many years and I've engaged with the patients over many years, even during these technological advancements and there's certain attributes and elements that just are consistent. That is; we're dealing with individuals. We're helping people with a highly personalised challenge be delivered with bespoke customisable solutions. So it's all about the individuals, about the people. I really think that if you think about it in a business suit, I can go down to one of the shopping malls here and I can buy a suit and it may look okay, it may fit okay, but I can go get one tailored. It could be the exact same material, but it's just that somebody's taken that time to really understand my measurements, et cetera. It's applying that within the industry. I think that the audiologist to go back to the original question, are they dying? No. I actually would say the complete opposite. I think you're going to find a greater demand and a greater value placed on the audiologist, not only just by the industry, but also by the consumer, more importantly, driven by the consumer demand.
[inaudible 00:44:36] , how do you see it? Well, I would agree to that, but I also think that, again, we can... So the audiologist is not dying, but we can help the audiologist with processes in the clinic, both to get good quality, but also to get person centred care and. So technology will help the audiologist even more, but I do agree the audiologist is a very, very centric part of the inducers journey, and we'll continue to be that. Christoffer, last word. No, the Audiologist is not dying. I think actually there is global trends like increasing global affluence, which basically will make this market grow continuously the next many, many years, and the craftmanship of an audiologist is just a given in this market. So I completely support the increase in the statements of the human factor, the emotions and the trust, though I actually think since the market, I believe, will grow a lot, also will mean that the machine learning and the brain technologies and all that stuff will maybe cater for certain parts of the market. So it's not a zero or a one game or binary game. It's a game where there will be more than enough place for both. But is the Audiologist dying? No. Well, guys, thank you so much for participating. This was the first episode and I thought, well, at least I think it was a great success. Thank you so much, Chris,[inaudible 00:46:29] , and Christoffer. We will have a next episode. It will be next month, and the topic is
going to be:Will Profits Vanish in the Near Future? I think that's a big question mark as well. So please, everyone, if you are following this podcast, hopefully you will listen one more time to this very interesting discussion. Again, thank you all for participating. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye.